Three leading presidential candidates - Hamed Karzai, Dr Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai and Ramazan Bashardost - have taken part in a televised debate co-hosted by Afghanistan's National TV and Radio Liberty in which they were given the chance to outline their policies on security, the economy and other issues.
Key opposition candidate Dr Abdollah was invited to attend the debate but declined. Speaking on security, President Karzai said peace would return to Afghanistan when understanding and cooperation increased with Pakistan, and the USA and NATO realized terrorism did not have its roots in Afghanistan.
He said his priority was a jerga to bring all sides, including the Taleban and the rebel Hezb-e Eslami group, together to work towards reconciliation. Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai said a clear framework was needed for peace but that was not achievable within a year, citing three to seven years as more realistic. Ahmadzai said he had a ten-year programme for the future and he would focus on the young and deprived members of society like widows, the disabled and women.
Bashardost was critical of corruption in the current government, which, he said, meant the people had no faith in their rulers. He criticized President Hamed Karzai for claiming to fight warlords while including them in his administration.
The three candidates agreed on improving the status of women by giving them due education, respect and employment. The other notable topics discussed were the economy, ethnic issue and Afghanistan's relations with neighbouring and regional countries.
The following is the full text of the debate, broadcast live by state-owned National Afghanistan TV on 16 August; subheadings inserted editorially.
[presenter, in Dari] Hello dear viewers of the National Radio Television of Afghanistan (RTA) and esteemed audience of Radio Liberty.
The National Radio Television is proud of organizing a live televised debate by some presidential candidates of 29 Asad 1388 [20 August] in cooperation with the Radio Liberty in the National Radio Television hall. It will shortly air the debate live.
Dr Akbar Ayazi, head of the Radio Liberty, is hosting the current programme and he and the guests are present in the hall.
We request him to commence the programme.
[The presenter talking to Ayazi on the phone]
Mr Ayazi can you hear me? The National Radio Television studio is ready for the programme.
[The TV shows the NRT hall and Ayazi is laughing]
Rules of the debate
[Ayazi, in Pashto] Audience of the Radio Liberty and viewers of the National TV! Radio Liberty is proud that in cooperation with the National TV we are providing the opportunity for presidential candidates to answer questions from the Afghan nation.
I am Akbar Ayazi and will host the debate, which will last over 90 minutes.
It is an historical debate and it is unprecedented in Afghan history.
I won't give any long details and would like to go directly to the programme. I have personally come up with all the questions and they have not been raised with any candidate earlier and no one knows about the questions.
The questions are in four parts entailing security issues in the country, internal issues, Afghan foreign policy and those questions that belong to a single candidate.
Every candidate will be given the right to answer every question and reject or accept other candidates' answers while answering the questions. But every candidate can answer the questions in a period of time specified for him and he should not interrupt another candidate's speech.
I will put a question to every candidate and he has two minutes to answer the question and the other two candidates should answer the same question in a minute and a half.
I request the candidates very strongly and seriously to observe their given time. There is a digital clock in front of the candidate on a big curtain. And the clock lights up in green, yellow and red and when the clock becomes red, the candidate's time will end and the candidate should not continue to speak and he should not interrupt another candidate's speech.
The candidate can answer both in Pashto and Dari.
The debate's conditions and principles have been raised with every candidate and I am hopeful that they will observe them.
The candidates have been asked seriously not to raise personal issues and to fulfil the nation's rights. They should only answer the questions specifically because the questions are very important for the nation and personal issues are not important for the people.
Also, the guests in the hall have promised me that they will remain silent during the debate and they will not clap and applaud for any candidate.
Introduction of candidates - no Dr Abdollah
Dear compatriots!
I would like to introduce the three presidential candidates of Afghanistan and they will come to the stage and stand in their places:
Esteemed Hamed Karzai, esteemed Dr Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai and esteemed Dr Ramazan Bashardost
You are the viewers and audience of a historical debate on Radio Liberty and National TV.
Dr Ashraf Ghani Ahamdzai you can stand in the middle. OK, you can stand anywhere you want.
Esteemed candidates thank you very much, be happy and enjoy your time.
The Afghan nation is indebted to you for coming here to answer their questions.
I have made the question based on the people's agreement.
I should mention one thing - that we invited another candidate Dr Abdollah Abdollah to this debate but unfortunately two or three days ago he informed us that he would not attend the debate.
[Ayazi, continues in Dari] At the outset, I would like to raise a question and every candidate will answer this question.
First question: Why are you the best candidate?
Every candidate has three minutes to answer the first question.
We earlier held a draw and based on the draw, Mr Bashardost came first.
The question is for the three esteemed candidates.
Mr Basardost, I am very sorry Mr Bashardost!
Why do you want to be Afghanistan's president and what makes you more suitable than the other candidates? You have three minutes and please keep an eye on the clock over there and when the clock becomes red, you should stop and we will go on to another candidate.
[Bashardost, in Pashto] In the name of Allah and in memory of Afghanistan's martyrs
I would like to present my warm greetings to all viewers and the audience.
Bashardost: Actions count not slogans
[Bashardost, continues in Dari] Thank you very much my compatriots for hosting and welcoming me in 27 provinces and for cooperating with me.
In response to this question, which has been raised by journalists many times, I said I would not vote for a candidate who says that he wants to become president to have bodyguards, appoint his relatives and fill his pockets. All the candidates are shouting slogans that they want to serve the nation, Afghanistan's independence, freedom and bring justice to the country and I would like to inform our compatriots that they should not believe in any candidate's assertions even if it is Bashardost.
When Bashardost or any other candidate says that he wants to build Afghanistan and bring justice and implement the law, you should not trust in his assertions. You should only observe his actions and trust in him based on your judgment.
You should ask yourself, when Bashardost makes a remark, did he prove his remark when he was a minister and MP. Does he prove it today in Afghanistan and does he have discrimination regarding the people in practical steps and in words.
What I am saying is my compatriots should assess this based on my actions.
Our prime objective is to build a prosperous and tranquil Afghanistan and this will be possible when a candidate has his actual freedom, he should have control of his desires and he should not have any discrimination towards Tajiks, Uzbeks, Pashtuns, Pashayes and Nurestanis.
All the candidates say that they will give rights to women, but it should be asked what they did in practice when they were in power.
They should take into account my performance when I was in the Ministry of Planning and when I shaped the ministry's leadership cadre. Also, the people should take a look at other ministries too.
All the candidates say that they will observe the laws in Afghanistan.
Almost all the candidates post their photos on shops, vehicles and walls without the permission of their owners. Thank you, that is enough.
[Ayazi] Mr Bashardost! You still have 22 seconds.
[Bashardost] We should observe the norms. When a candidate says that he will observe the laws and posts his photos on the people's walls and huts, it seems he is not observing the laws and from the very beginning he starts breaking the laws. Thank you, I think the time is over and the clock has become red.
[Ayazi] Thank you very much
Karzai: Still goals to achieve
Esteemed Hamed Karzai, we turn to you, why do you want to become president of Afghanistan for the second time?
[Hamed Karzai, in Dari] In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
Hello dear compatriots and honourable guests
When the Bonn Conference was under way and there were talks about the appointment of a president of the interim administration, I was in Tarin Kot [provincial capital of southern] Urozgan Province. It was very surprising and unpredictable news when I heard that they had appointed me as a president. Since I came to Kabul and started work, we have, so far, taken Afghanistan out of that adverse situation and now, with the grace of Allah, we have an independent country, we have a flag, we have honour, we have schools, we have education, we have better health and lives. I would like to say briefly.
Now, since I have gained experience, I want to become president again. Secondly my wishes, which are to serve the people of Afghanistan, have not been met yet. Despite all our great achievements, our country still faces very serious and important problems. There is not a nationwide peace. There is not stability across Afghanistan. I have not achieved my other wishes, which are country's progress and tranquillity. I think, based on my experience, nature, tolerance, endurance and deeds, I can serve Afghanistan for another five years. I hope the nation will trust in me, elect me and consider me as an appropriate [candidate].
[Ayazi] Mr Karzai you have still one minute more. If you want you can talk about the same issue, why you want to become president again and you still have 56 seconds to give details to the Afghan nation.
[Hamed Karzai] It is enough, we will return to the issue.
Ahmadzai: 10-year programme for future
[Ayazi] That is right. Dr Ashraf Ghani what specifications and goodness do you have that you want to become Afghanistan's president?
[Ashraf Ghani, in Pashto] In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
First of all, I would like to congratulate the Afghan nation that for the first time we are able to elect our future president freely. In addition to this, it is necessary to cast our votes without accepting force and cash.
The reason why I am standing in the presidential election is that I have a scheme. I have a 10-year programme. It is an organized [programme] and I have a picture of the future. Meanwhile, I have a 20-year framework. Secondly, I have practical experience, based on which, I can put into translation the people's desires and thirdly, the three majorities, which today are seen as minorities, will be the centre of my focus. They are the youth, who constitute 71 per cent of the population, and now, unfortunately, do not consider themselves as belonging to this land, a deprived stratum starting with disabled individuals to orphans and widows and today we are not giving them their rights and their lives need to be improved and the third group are women. So, based on this scheme, one section should work on the economy, I have worked practically. Education is as important for me as infrastructural projects are. In terms of regional issues, in my opinion, Afghanistan sho! uld regain its central status and it should turn into a bridge between Central Asia, South Asia and the Middle East.
The third one is the Islamic World. We should establish a relation with the Islamic World to strengthen the holy religion of Islam in Afghanistan and encourage Arab countries to invest in the country. And the other issue that refers to the world, I know about the world but I do not stand in the presidential race to implement the world programme here.
I want to convey the nation's message, the village's message, the nomads' message, the message of villagers and those who live in cities to the world and work based on a framework with an objective and then I want to shape Afghanistan's national sovereignty.
Unfortunately, today we are not safeguarding the national sovereignty and based on any norms in five years we should have control over the national sovereignty and this needs sincerity, practical work and decisiveness.
[Ayazi in Pashto] Thank you very much, Ashraf Ghani Ahmdazai
Now, we know why you want to become president. So, let's raise issues on behalf of the people of Afghanistan.
Ahmadzai: Security can't be achieved in a year
The first question refers to you esteemed Ashraf Ghani.
For over 30 years, the Afghan nation has asked for peace and security, but this desire has not been met yet, violence is escalating, thousands of families, when they go to sleep at night, are not confident that they will be alive in the morning. If you are elected, can you give assurances to the Afghan nation that you will bring peace and security to Afghanistan? You have only two minutes to answer this question.
[Ashraf Ghani, in Dari] Thank you for your question
Peace and stability should be differentiated. Stability cannot be brought to Afghanistan by force and knife. Only a political framework, in which the system's legitimacy should be justified by the majority of our people, can bring peace and stability in Afghanistan.
Secondly, unfortunately our security bodies do not have unity and therefore on my first day I would like to re-establish the position of high command within the national army, police and National Security Directorate and they should work based on an organized framework.
Thirdly, we should include religious leaders, clean jihadi commanders and local influential figures in a political chain with the government; otherwise, there will be a weak connecting bridge between the nation and government.
Thirdly [fourthly] we should launch a transparent peace process, in which talks with angry brothers [opponents] should be held in between three and seven years.
If anyone promises that he will bring peace to Afghanistan in one year, it is not possible. We should fully realize the complexity of the issue and we should also form clear trust-building levels and this can be done when there is a general consensus in this respect. The cabinet should play a vital role in this regard. It cannot be only the president's scheme and it should be implemented completely.
Also, without curbing administrative corruption, we cannot bring peace and security by force and the majority's opinion should be taken into account.
[Ayazi] Thank you very much
Karzai: Afghan, Pakistan collaboration key to security
Esteemed Karzai, seven years have elapsed for your government and the nation has been waiting for you to bring peace and security to Afghanistan. If you are elected again, can you promise that you will bring peace and security to the country?
You have two minutes.
[Hamed Karzai, in Pashto] When seven years ago, we started a new process in Afghanistan, in the first two years, there was relatively peace and security in this land. And when I was in Shah Wali Kot District of Kandahar Province and appointed as president of the interim administration, I pardoned the Taleban so they could return to their houses and remain in their homeland. But after I came to Kabul and became busy there, unfortunately the situation has been changed by both coalition and Afghan forces and some powerful individuals. The people's and Taleban houses have been searched during some operations and they had to leave the country. Meanwhile, those Taleban, who left the country, were regrouped by foreign powers to attack Afghanistan. We have told the foreigners over the past seven years repeatedly that the war on terror should not be launched inside Afghanistan. War should not be launched in villages and residential areas in Afghanistan and that operati! ons in residential areas, the bombardment of houses, searches of houses and arresting of people should be stopped. Instead, attention should be paid to terrorist bases, training centres and financial sources and they are outside Afghanistan. For three years, our assertions have come true. The situation has deteriorated in Pakistan and the people of Pakistan have faced problems and this is a fact. Hence, peace can be brought to Afghanistan when collaboration and agreement are strengthened between Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Secondly, the international community such as USA and NATO, should know that terrorism is not in Afghanistan. However, now they have agreed with us. The ground for peace should be prepared through Afghan channels such as convening a Loya Jerga [grand assembly] and with cooperation of Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan's neighbours, the Taleban and Hezb-e Eslami [Islamic Party] should be brought to the Loya Jerga.
[Ayazi] Thank you
Bashardost: "Murderers" have no place in government
Mr Bashardost if you become a president, do you have any programme for security?
You have two minutes.
[Bashardost] First of all, I am very sorry that Dr Abdollah [Abdollah, a presidential candidate] is not here and if the dear doctor hears this, it would have been good if you had been among us.
Because when Tolo TV did not invite me to the [first] televised debate, I felt that my rights had been violated. So, I am sad from the heart that Dr Abdollah is not among us today.
I think if a patient's disease is diagnosed falsely, he will be given the wrong prescription and medicines. The wrong medicine will result in the death of a patient instead of healing him, whether the medic has good intentions or not. My evaluation about peace and security is very different.
My analysis of peace and security is very different. Today we are facing those who are not just annoyed - this is a very weak word to describe them. They are the people who say that murderers, those who were defeated by them and whose hands are stained with the blood of the innocent are once again in their posts in the Afghan government. I travelled to Watapur [District of eastern Konar Province], Baraki Barak [District of eastern Maydan-Wardag Province] and Urozgan Province and held talks with local people. I have not met any Taleban member yet because there is no place in my logic to differentiate between Afghans who are Tajik, Pashtun and Hazara and who are young, old, female or male or disabled or healthy.
The process of differentiating is the start of misery in Afghanistan.
Therefore, we should form a government in which their murderers should have no place. Secondly, the Afghans should have prestige and secondly, the Afghans should have prosperous lives.
[Ayazi] Your time is over. Thank you very Mr Bashardost.
Complaints about lack of time on important subjects
[Hamed Karzai] Mr Ayazi, time is very short.
[Ayazi] Yes
[Hamed Karzai] My speech was cut and Bashardost's speech was also incomplete and many things have been left to say.
If the same question is repeated it is fine [sentence incomplete]
[Ayazi] Mr President there are a lot of issues, there are a lot of questions. I wish there were only the issues of security, terrorism and narcotics but since there are a lot of issues, I want to refer to all of them
[Hamed Karzai, in Pashto] I would like to say that if the two brothers [Bashardost and Ahmadzai] agree, we will give much of our time to important questions and we will give less time to less important issues.
[Ayazi in Pashto] You three candidates should reach an agreement on this issue. You may give much of your time to important issues to give details about them to the nation.
[Hamed Karzai] The issue of peace is very important.
[Ayazi] Sir Doctor [Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai] do you agree to give two minutes more to these issues?
[Ashraf Ghani] Issues will remain without discussion. As you wish
[Bashardost] More time should be given to important issues and security is an important issue.
[Ashraf Ghani] All the issues are important. As you wish.
[Ayazi] Yes, as I said, all the people think about security and it is an important issue. So, as Mr Karzai suggested, I will initially give two minutes to him.
Karzai elaborates on plans for reconciliation
[Karzai, in Pashto] Yes, so I want to take steps for reconciliation among the Afghans through a Loya jerga. We have tried a lot over the past four years in this regard. The international community or foreign community did not agree with us. There was not agreement with neighbours and we did not have the necessary relations with the Islamic World. Now, fortunately, the ground is prepared for reconciliation and there is better agreement with the Islamic World, particularly with Saudi Arabia and the USA. The USA and NATO have come to the agreement that peace is important for Afghanistan and it should be achieved through national reconciliation among the Afghans rather than war. Therefore, a Loya Jerga should be held among the Afghans that should be attended by the Taleban and Hezb-e Eslami. Meanwhile, a regional peace jerga should be held between Pakistan and Afghanistan.
The first regional peace jerga was held in Kabul two years ago and I am hopeful that the second jerga will be held in Islamabad after the election so that agreement will be strengthened in the region and between the Afghans and USA. Also, there will be coordination with the Islamic World to end the grounds for violence in Afghanistan.
Also, those Taleban, who are not part of Al-Qa'idah and do not have any connection with terrorist groups and want Afghanistan's prosperity and accept the constitution, are welcome as national reconciliation is the single option to bring agreement among the Afghans.
[Ayazi] Thank you very much, esteemed Karzai, you still have 20 seconds.
Since the number was misarranged, I would like to give the number to Dr Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai, I give you two minutes to voice your opinion on how you can bring peace and security to Afghanistan.
Ahmadzai: People don't trust government, officials
[Ashraf Ghani, in Pashto] The first thing is that the people are unhappy because neither governors nor security commanders and judges are serving them. Therefore, is it possible to bring peace with those individuals who have already been appointed?
Can these individuals give a hand to bring peace or are they those individuals who have sent hundreds of people to Guantanamo Bay jail by giving false information.
It is an internal issue and we should take this into account.
Secondly, can we bring unity? Ten of billions of dollars have been spent on police but we still have an incompetent police force that looks more similar to a militia force than a police force.
So, measures should be taken in this regard. This is an evaluation by the world and people.
When someone is kidnapped or something is stolen, initially one should specify a suspect source.
Secondly, in terms of regional issues, since we do not bring stability to our country, how can the region trust in us. I think now there are some opportunities in the region and we should take advantage of them. But we should bring fundamental changes.
Changes have been brought to the world and we should shape an effective government in Afghanistan.
As long as we do not reach an agreement on how to enhance the government's effectiveness with every passing day and implement the law - does the law say pardon smugglers, who have been sentenced to jail terms?
How can one trust that the government is enforcing the law while the law is violated by it?
[Ayazi] Thank you very much
Bashardost: Corruption, injustice undermine security
Esteemed Bashardost, you have two minutes to answer the question on how you can bring peace and security to Afghanistan?
[Bashardost] The first thing that we need to do is be assured that no murderer of an innocent Taleb is recruited within the government - such individuals should not be allowed to work within the government even as an ordinary worker, let alone to be appointed minister, governor, district chief, etc.
Secondly, jobs of corrupt officials, particularly those who are receiving salaries in dollars and filling their pockets - but since their pockets are too big they are not filled at once - should be suspended promptly and courts should be formed by honest and pious judges and the government should even guarantee the judges' grandson's life. Also, the judges should not take bribes.
In terms of bribes, today most people refer to Taleban leaders because they say, Mr Bashardost, if we go to district chiefs, they ask for money and the same demand is made by judges.
Thirdly, injustice should be ended in society. One person is dying of starvation while another one is enjoying a high quality of life. One is living in a palace while the other is living in the open air and does not have a house.
One person receives 30,000 dollars per month based on the finance minister's order while another receives 500 Afg [equivalent to 10 dollars].
A mojahed, who lost his hand due to Afghanistan's freedom, is receiving 500 Afg and told me - Mr Bashardost, when he goes to the Ministry of Public Works and Social Affairs, he has to give 250 afg of his salary as a bribe [to do his work].
[Ayazi] Mr Bashardost, I am sorry, I will give you another 30 seconds but I would like to clarify one issue - that we did not ask how to eliminate corruption, we want you to talk about security.
[Bashardost] Corruption is one of the factors of insecurity. The people refer to the Taleban or a Mawlawi or Mullah because district chiefs and government employees do not resolve their problem. District chiefs are not serving the nation and the nation is not under the service of the government while logic says that the government should serve the nation and the nation should serve the government.
Security is not only an internal issue. Foreign countries are interfering in Afghanistan. I say that we should reach an agreement with these countries, meaning these countries should not feel any threat from Afghanistan. If a puppet of India, the USA, the UK, Iran and Pakistan is in power in Afghanistan, the Afghans will never face security because the other country does not let them.
[Ayazi in Dari] Mr Bashardost your time is over. I have given you an extra 20 seconds and the clock has become red now.
Thank you very much.
Karzai: Military operations should be led by Afghan forces
I will refer to the next question and this question will refer to Hamed Karzai.
Mr Karzai, this question has two parts. First of all, in my opinion, without a doubt, peace cannot be brought to the country without negotiations and reaching agreement with the Taleban or with those who are holding guns and disrupting people's lives.
Secondly, peace cannot be achieved without stopping the killings of civilians by the international forces and I think this issue has already been clarified for the nation.
Have you failed or succeeded to tackle this problem and what is your next programme if you win the election?
You have three minutes.
[Hamed Karzai, in Dari] It is a very important question. Without a doubt, security cannot be ensured without finding a solution. In the beginning, I mentioned that terrorism is not in villages and residential areas in Afghanistan and terrorism is outside Afghanistan.
Civilian casualties are one of the serious problems in Afghanistan and we have tried a lot over the past seven years to tackle this problem.
We have tried a lot and reached agreements with NATO and the coalition forces over the past five years but unfortunately our efforts have not produced any positive outcome.
Finally last year, our agreement after a lot of discussions produced a better result and civilian casualties have been reduced and I wish the problem was completely addressed.
Based on our future plan, no military operation should be carried out without the Afghan government's permission. The Afghan people's houses should not be searched. Thirdly, the people should not be arrested inside Afghanistan and jails should not be run by foreigners in Afghanistan and a Loya Jerga, god willing, will be held to discuss the issue after the election and Afghanistan will reach an agreement with the international community in this respect. Also, we will begin a new life in collaboration with the international community and our interest should be clarified.
We should act as host and they [foreign forces] as guests.
[Ayazi, in Pashto] You have still one minute more.
Earlier, I gave you two minutes but you asked for three minutes.
[Hamed Karzai, in Pashto] Now, efforts are under way to achieve these agreements with the international community. God willing, after the election, we will reach agreement with the international community and the USA that military operations should be led by Afghan forces. Also, the Afghan national army and police should be beefed up, our laws should be respected and the peace process should go forward in a way that there will be no need for violence any more, and god willing, these agreements will become visible after the election with the Afghan nation's involvement.
We will achieve what is in Afghanistan's interest.
[Ayazi, in Pashto] Although you had 10 more seconds, I now want to put questions to Ramazan Bashardost. What is your plan on that if you are elected as the president? You also have just three minutes.
Bashardost: Afghan president must serve national interests
[Bashardost, in Dari] Except for me, all candidates are saying that they would like to talk to the Taleban. But none of them are asking themselves whether or not the Taleban are ready to negotiate with them? This is because it is impossible that negotiations are held only by one party. They [the candidates] are saying that they would offer provincial posts to the Taleban. They are saying they would offer ministerial posts to the Taleban. I asked a candidate the other day on a TV channel whether he thought Mullah Omar would be ready to serve as his governor. The candidate became angry. One should be a little serious on these issues. Secondly, the problem is that there was no single American, Russian or British soldier in Afghanistan when the Taleban first took up arms in Afghanistan in 1994 or 1374, and based on my analysis and understanding, the Taleban are not fighting the war against America and Britain. The Taleban are fighting the ones the Taleban defeated! in the fighting and got power from them and forced them to flee. But with the establishment of the Karzai government, they again returned to the government and got their respective posts. A Taleban member told me in Urozgan that the governor we defeated has again been appointed governor by President Hamed Karzai and the first decision of this governor was to send soldiers to Taleban homes and bring them to jail for investigation.
Secondly, the problem of Afghanistan's security is not merely an internal issue and is also an external issue. Pakistan will never remain silent until it continues to feel that Afghanistan is a tool used by India, Iran or Russia. Likewise, Iran will never remain silent if it feels that Afghanistan is a tool used by Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. Therefore, we should have a president who really enjoys respect and who does not serve as the servant of any country and who only takes into consideration the national interests of Afghanistan and has a scientific analysis of Afghanistan. The national interest of Afghanistan is not the interest of a particular tribe, sect, religion or party. Secondly, the persons who are asked by the countries hostile to Afghanistan to make an Afghan son an orphan and an Afghan woman a widow, should know that his wife could one day become a widow and orphan too. There is an adage, saying the tears of the Kebab cause fire [the fat from the k! ebab makes the fire more fierce or tears make the oppressor more cruel]. We should have Iran, Pakistan and any other countries know that Afghanistan has an owner and that the owner is ready to defend its borders, land and nationals at the cost of his life. It is a mere myth that civilian casualties could be reduced. Bashardost has gone to 27 provinces - the provinces suffering war and conflict. Our helicopters are daily transferring martyrs and this was the reason the government did not provide us with helicopters to visit other provinces.
[Moderator, in Dari] Mr Bashardost, excuse me, you time has finished. Thank you very much.
Ahmadzai: Country needs clear strategy, officials that can be trusted
[Ayazi, in Pashto] Dear respected Dr Ashraf Ghani. What is your plan on that? You have just three minutes.
[Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai, in Pashto] I told you first that the post of the supreme command of the armed forces should become operational in order to create coordination. Today, unfortunately, there is no coordination between the Afghan troops and international forces. Information is not exchanged in an organized manner on a daily basis. We cannot achieve our goal until the establishment of an organized framework based on which we agree on the gradual reduction of use of force by foreign troops and the handing of more power and authority to the Afghan forces. Secondly, if we want to close a prison, especially Bagram, which we must close, then we should reform our system and until we reform our system how can we have a prison? Unlike what Mr Kazai is saying, it is impossible to close the prison soon, because it needs time to bring the necessary fundamental reforms and we should understand that we need time. Security is deteriorating with every passing day, not onl! y in the south but also in the north. We also witnessed an incident yesterday. Kabul does not have any security plan. It has been eight years since Kabul had any security plan and security walls [concrete security fences] are built in front of ministry buildings instead of security belts being built 60km away from the city. If one really wants to work on security, then the new president should present a proper strategy both to the world and people. Why has the world come here? They have not come here to make us its colony like 19th and 20th century, but they Afghanistan to have stability. Until we have an owner for this land and president, who has a clear and specific Afghan strategy and who is able to convince the world that his strategy is better, practical and produces results with every passing day, other efforts will be useless . I am now giving you another example about the police. It is said that 10bn dollars have been spent on the police, but what kind of police hav! e we got. It is still unclear what the size of the police is and how m any of them receive a salary and what their living conditions are. People will find confidence in us when they trust our court, police, intelligence and army. Practical steps and accountability are needed to create an atmosphere of confidence for the people. Until the corrupt officials, whose corruption has many times been proved, are treated based on the policy of reward and punishment, it is difficult to restore the nation's trust and there is a need to fully clear the account and there should be fairness in everything. Jihad was waged by the whole nation and not some particular persons.
Ahmadzai wants open, incorruptible government
[Ayazi, in Pashto] Thank you very much Mr Ghani. Dear respected candidates, as I have now learned what your plans are about negotiations with the Taleban and how to prevent civilian casualties. The other issue the Afghan nation is complaining about and is suffering from is warlords and criminals and the nation wants to be rescued from the clutch of powerful warlords and criminals.
Dear Ashraf Ghani, it is now your turn to answer the question first. You have just three minutes.
[Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai, in Dari] Thank you. I have taken the first step on that. I have never struck any deals with any warlords to hand them control of a ministry, governor post or part of Afghanistan. This is because the deals struck based on sharing of government power between individuals give the warlords the chance to again appear on the scene of power. It is the base and first step of my work to directly build ties with the Afghan nation. Secondly, 3,000 senior officials of the government led by me must announce all their assets to the Afghan nation on the first day of my government, and an authorized civil society commission should make sure that they do not have the wrong background so that it could become clear that a new era has begun. Thirdly, any crimes taking place in the country in the future should be seriously dealt with according to the law. We cannot tolerate that a seven-year-old girl is raped or an indicted person is freed from prison. The ! sacred religion of Islam has two principles on that - the right of God and the right of people [Arabic: Haqollah and Haqolabd]. The government cannot ignore Haqolabad, therefore, a draft law to bring fundamental changes to our judicial system should be prepared so that people's rights are ensured and protected and they can seek justice. It was the people of Afghanistan who paid the price for what is going in Afghanistan. A small number of people cannot monopolize the sacred name of jihad as jihad talks about good works and not to seek benefit.
Bashardost: All oppressors of Afghan people should be held accountable
[Ayazi, in Pashto] Thank you. Mr Bashardost, do you have a better plan than the one proposed by Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai in rescuing the nation from criminals, warlords and those monopolizing power?
[Bashardost, in Dari] I would first like to correct the word warlord. I prefer to use the Islamic and Koranic words such as oppressor and victim. The second point is that our mojahedin brethren should never feel that warlord is equal to a mojahed. I have seen a mojahed, who owns only one bed and blanket in the Sarajol Emirat Park in Jalalabad. This mojahed is now suffering psychological diseases. I have seen a mojahed in Bamian whose one leg is not functioning and he is working in a traditional teashop to make ends meet. We respect these people, and when I was appointed the minister of planning, I even said that if our mojahedin had not staged the holy war, the name of the son of Bashardost would have now been Sakharov and Gorbajov, etc. He would have now become Russian. Therefore, a warlord, or a better word, oppressor is not the person who caused oppression only during jihad or the civil war. All those who killed Khaliqis [communist faction] over personal fe! uds or the ones who killed or oppressed another person over a mere land dispute are oppressors. Or, those who oppressed Afghans on different pretexts without any justification during the Taleban regime are also oppressors. All those, either Pashtun, Tajik, Hazara, Uzbek, Taleban, Mojahed or communist, who have killed Afghan nationals without any justification, should be held accountable before the law and not the ones the president wants to hold accountable only.
Secondly, I believe the people of Afghanistan will never welcome those who claim to fight warlords while the latter is serving as their running mate and is playing a key role in their election campaign. The people of Afghanistan will not accept the one who caused oppression during the Taleban, mojahedin and communist regimes. The people of Afghanistan will not trust the leader even if one of his officials is made up of these people. The first condition for a leader to succeed in his work is the trust of his nation.
Karzai: Terms like warlord are unhelpful
[Moderator, in Pashto] Thank you very much. Respected Hamed Karzai, do you have any new strategy on that if you are elected again?
[President Karzai, in Pashto] First of all I would like to defend the police of Afghanistan. The police of Afghanistan are losing their lives and are martyred in different provinces of the country every day. Five, six to 10 police officers are martyred almost every day. It is a fact that there is corruption in the Afghan government and society, but the police cannot get rid of corruption. I do not want to talk more on that but I am ready to defend, on behalf of the people of Afghanistan, the sacrifice the police are making every day. Secondly, Dr Ashraf Ghani made a good remark on the registration of personal assets. Our government has prepared this plan and has also announced it. I also hope the presidential candidates will be ready to announce their assets too. I have announced my assets as the president twice. I first announced five years ago when I was elected as the president and I also registered my assets four or five months ago. I hope other candidates! will also announce their assets. It is very important that the assets and the sources of the assets of candidates are assessed by the people of Afghanistan, lawyers and a special body able to properly study who really has assets and who does not have to find out who is telling the truth and who is lying. I term necessary such a move for the reform of the Afghan government.
The word warlord is a word that became very common during the transitional administration. Such words are used to cause tension and conflict between warlords, mojahedin and the non-mojahedin people of Afghanistan. I would like the people of Afghanistan to avoid using such expressions. Afghanistan should not be the place of conflict and disagreements. The words warlord, communist, Khalqi and Parchami [communist factions] should not be used any more. Wrong accusations are also made against the Afghans who have come from abroad. I want Afghanistan to turn into a place of understanding, living and peace.
[Moderator] Thank you.
[President Karzai, in Pashto] You prevented us from talking about the important point.
[Moderator] Unfortunately, time has run out.
[President Karzai, in Pashto] Part of my remark remained unsaid.
[Moderator] You can talk again later, and if you have enough time, you can again focus on this issue while answering the next question.
[President Karzai, in Pashto] It was very important for national reconciliation.
Bashardost: Jobs should be given to Afghan young people
[Moderator] Your time has unfortunately finished. Thank you very much. Mr Bashardost, unemployment, poor economy, narcotics, crime and corruption are threatening the young people of the country who make up almost 60 to 70 per cent of the whole population. If you become the president, do you have any plan to integrate these young people into civil society and into a society which is based on the rule of law?
[Bashardost, in Dari] One hundred per cent. As far as I know, it is only me who has prepared his plans on a monthly basis. I do not have any 10-year, 15-year, 20-year or five-year plans. This is because today's economy is poor to the extent that even a two-year plan is called into question from the scientific point of view. I have announced my assets. I would like the candidates not to only announce their assets but to also make public the source of their assets. A candidate says one of his friends has given him some donations. Why is that friend of the candidate not making any donations for Bashardost? Where has your friend got this money from? Secondly, I am against those who have made business in the name of communist, mojahed and Taleban. I love and respect the helpless Khaliqis, Parchamis, Mojahed and Taleban. All my focus is to dress the wounds of all these people, because they are all wounded. Unemployment is one of the main reasons for insecurity. The ! government had assigned a police battalion to ensure security of parliament but it did not pay the salaries of the officers working in the battalion for four months. The police officers of the battalion complained to the extent that I told parliament that if you give 1,000 dollars to the hungry soldier, he would blow up the whole parliament, because he is hungry. I told parliament that you have brought equipment from the US able to capture photos from a distance of 100 metres. I have seen thousands of Afghans without food and jobs in every corner of the country. But who are working in Afghanistan at the moment instead of these jobless Afghans? It is the Iranian doctors, American engineers, Pilipino bodyguards and Pakistani masons instead of them. Work should be given to the Afghans first as thousands of them are jobless now.
I think the time has finished but I have yet to start my talk.
[Moderator] There is still no red light. You still have 20 seconds.
[Bashardost] Secondly, we should have a long-term programme and we should build water dams as a priority. If we build three to four major water dams and harness our waters in our own country by bringing under cultivation four of our deserts, 70 per cent of Afghans, who are farmers, will find work. We will have electricity if we have dam.
[Moderator] Thank you, your time has finished. Thank you very much for taking into account my health condition. Mr Karzai, how would you be able to integrate these [jobless] young people into civil society where there is the rule of law. How would you prevent them from being involved in corruption and crime?
Indistinct remark by Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai, saying it is now his turn]
[Moderator] Please pardon me if I made a mistake. Dear Ahmadzai, you can now talk.
Ahmadzai: Need for proper security plan, job creation
[Ahmadzai, in Pashto] I just thought. As the first step, I announced my assets when I was serving as minister and I also showed the sources of my assets. I again announced my assets, and I am very much welcoming the idea that every candidate, minister and governor must declare their assets. In the future, registration and announcement of personal assets will be compulsory. I also very much regret the martyring of police, but martyrdom and corruption are different and we should make a distinction between the two. The reason the police are martyred is the fact that we do not have a proper security strategy and young men are losing their lives. We should have a proper security plan to first help prevent the police from being martyred. With regards to the young people, I have said that special attention should be paid to six sectors so that we are able to create 1m new jobs. What are these sectors? 1. Agriculture. We cannot make progress until Afghanistan becomes ! self-sufficient from the agricultural point of view and this requires practical action. 2. Animal husbandry. This is because one quarter of the people in this land are livestock breeders and we cannot make progress without becoming self-sufficient in the animal husbandry sector. 3. Construction sector. I would like to help set up work forces within this sector. This is because, based on the current strategy, each of our projects costs us too much to the extent that we cannot achieve what we want. The fourth point is minerals. Processing of minerals will not bring about a quick result, but within three to five years, the processing of Afghanistan's minerals will enable us to feed ourselves for the coming 50 to 150 years. The fifth thing is urban services and proper attention has not been paid to this. The sixth sector is communication services.
This is a precise plan which will enable the young generation to become the owner of this country and will help them live a dignified life in their country and not die in containers or migrate to Iran.
[Ayazi] Thank you very much. One of my friends once told me.
[Karzai interrupts] My brother, is it not my turn?
[Ayazi] Your turn about [the question] on young people?
[Karzai] Yes.
[Ayazi] I thought you answered this question. I will give you two minutes time.
[Karzai] OK.
[Ayazi] Please go ahead and we give two minutes time to Hamed Karzai.
[Karzai] Regarding the young people.
[Ayazi interrupts] Excuse me, I did not want to cause argument between you and Ashraf Ghani. So you can have two minutes to talk.
[Karzai] No, no. It is something else if he argues, but I do not want to argue.
[Ayazi] Laughter.
Karzai: Education a priority for young people
[Karzai, in Pashto] I am now transparently explaining what my government has done for young people. First of all, fortunately the number of university students has reached 75,000 from 4,000. All this happened under my administration. Secondly, thousands of these students are getting their education in India and in other countries. I was very happy that three months ago 80 young Afghan men returned to the country with degrees and PhD degrees. With the grace of God, we have made progress in the educational sector and this will accelerate and improve, especially in the scientific sectors such as medicine, engineering and architecture. Many of these Afghan experts have been appointed to the government through the administrative reforms commission. They have been appointed even in my own office. Hundreds and thousands of them are working in other organizations. The other very important and key issue for the young people in my programme is that that I am focusing on! the education of young people as a priority. There is a need for very fundamental education so that the young people of Afghanistan can get higher education in modern technology and vocational training. We will continue to remain dependent on the world until our young people get such an education. Secondly, the programme to recruit young people should be organized in a manner that those graduating should be appointed to the government based on their competence and merit after attending a general test. The society and economy should grow enough to enable young people to find jobs in society. India is a good example of this. The Indian government was the biggest employer of young people for almost 40 years, 20 years after it got its independence. It has now been 20 years since the young people were recruited into society and in the private sector, in addition to the government. This example could also be implemented in Afghanistan. This programme has more details and there i! s not enough time to explain that here. You can read it in my platform . Thank you.
[Ayazi, in Dari] Thank you very much dear candidates. As a moderator, I would like to give you three minutes each to answer the question. What I am asking is very important issue for the entire Afghan nation, because it depends on the 50 per cent population of Afghanistan. One of my friends asked that how the poor people of Afghanistan, especially the women, who make up 50 per cent of the whole population, can get their rights while the persons, who are supposed to be their protectors, are violating their rights? Mr Ashraf Ghani, how would you help the 50 per cent population of Afghanistan get their rights if you are elected as the president?
[Ahmadzai, in Dari] The key point is [interrupted by the moderator].
[Ayazi, in Dari] Excuse me, you have just two minutes.
Ahmadzai: implementation of women's programme
[Ahmadzai, in Dari] The key point is the sacred religion of Islam, because the sacred religion of Islam has given our sisters a lot of rights, but their rights have not been given to them practically. First of all, male police investigate the women who are accused of crime and the worst forms of crimes against women are taking place in our prisons. I would like to fully prevent this. Second is the right of ownership. The right of ownership is a Shari'ah matter, and they have been deprived, to a huge extent, of their Shari'ah right of ownership. So when civil rights of ownership are transferred into Shari'ah form of ownership, one of its main aspects should be to separate the Shari'ah rights of ownership of our sisters. Thirdly is the right of women for education. The international experience has shown that investment on a girl child can change the condition of five generations while investment on a boy child can help change only one generation. The fourth poin! t is employment. Today it is the first time in Afghanistan that hundreds of thousands of Afghan families are dependent on the income coming from Afghan woman labourers. No fundamental decision has been taken to help strengthen their economy. Part of the efforts should be exclusively allocated for women and this would help their role in making money. The other issue is the health sector. Enough attention has not been paid to reduce the mortality rate of young mothers, and as a last word, I would like to talk about the participation of women in the government. I was proud to appoint two Afghan women as the heads of budget and treasury departments [when he was serving as the finance minister.
A marginal Ministry of Women would not be able to meet the needs of our sisters and the president's office should focus and implement women's programme as one of the main programmes dedicated for the three majority classes of people in Afghanistan.
[Ayazi, in Dari] Thank you very much.
[Ayazi, in Dari] Mr Bashardost, if you are elected as the president, what are you plans to restore the rights of women, who are making 50 per cent of Afghan nation? You have just two minutes.
Bashardost: Restoring women's rights
[Bashardost, in Dari] The first step is to stop people looking at women as second-class humans. We should put an end to the idea that women should eat the men's leftovers food, if remain. We should look at women through the eyes of a human. We should accept that a woman is a human being and enjoys the human dignity and respect a man enjoys. Women should be given the right to work and the government should 100 per cent prevent irresponsible moves and acts. How should we trust those, who claim that they are giving the women the right to work while they themselves do not allow their own wives to work? One of the victims of the crisis in Afghanistan are the jobless women. Hundreds of acres of land have remained uncultivated in rural areas and the women, like men, are not able to find a loaf of bread. It is because of this issue that I said our main project, whether on women, men, young and old people, should be to help Afghanistan become an agricultural, industria! l and scientific country. We have 70bn cubic meters of flowing waters in Afghanistan, but we are using only 10bn cubic meters of those waters. There are 10m hectares of agricultural land, but only 2m hectares of the land are under cultivation and that not in complete manner. If we look at every village, we will witness tragedy. Therefore, we have 400 types of minerals and none of the minerals have been professionally processed. Education should be the backbone and women should be given the same right in the educational sector too. Thus, the first step we should take is to make women not to be recognized as the second-class and weak humans. We should help the women gain their due rights and the women should not trust those who are talking about women's rights but do not meet their promises.
[Ayazi, in Dari] Your time has finished. Dear Hamed Karzai, if you are elected for a second round, what are your plans to defend from the rights of the 50 per cent of the population of Afghanistan?
Karzai: promoting women's education
[Karzai, in Dari] God willing, if am re-elected, my programme will be to continue the efforts I have made so far. The programme is aimed at improving the educational condition our daughters, who are, thanks God, making up 30 to 40 per cent of school students. Likewise, we will help improve the condition of higher education of our sisters, who are, thanks God, making up 25 per cent of our university students today. Our plan is to improve the method women are employed in the government and we will offer the women special privileges. I have also promised women's unions that women would be allowed to be employed in government organizations, especially in the medical sectors, nursing and as midwives. Efforts will be made to encourage women work in the above sectors in rural areas of Afghanistan. We will try to improve healthcare for women. We have managed in the past five years to at least help prevent mother and child mortality rate and this progress should go on.! Efforts should be made to open literacy training classes and courses for girls and women of Afghanistan. This programme will continue. We are hopeful that the achievements women have made in political, social and economic sectors in Afghanistan would be doubled in the coming five years. We are hopeful that the number of women working in the government would reach to at least 40 per cent from the current 21 per cent. It will be one of our big achievements if we attain the above goals and I believe, God willing, we will surely achieve that.
[Ayazi, in Dari] Esteemed Karzai, if I give you two minutes time, you will finish you remarks sooner, but if I give you three minutes time, you are saying you need more time. Now your time has finished, but still had 20 seconds.
[Ayazi, in Pashto] Dear candidates, I have a short comment here which is very important for the people of Afghanistan. So, please answer the questions after my comment. I do not want to generally ask you what your economic plan is for the country's economy, as you may use some expressions and make some remarks the 80 per cent illiterate people of Afghanistan may not be able to comprehend as it would be difficult for an ordinary Afghan to know economic expressions. But I would like to ask the question in this manner. The free market economy has been interpreted to the Afghans in a weak form that the majority of them even do not know the meaning of free market economy. Do you agree with me that Afghanistan's economy is the economy of powerful people and warlords, or if you allow me to explain more clearly, do you believe Afghanistan has mafia-based economy? How do you change this? How do you put an end to destituteness, help generate job for the people, equally ! distribute the government revenue and foreign aid money and bring prosperity and peace to the living condition of people?
Mr Bashardost, it is now your turn to answer the first question. You have just three minutes to talk about Afghanistan's economy?
Bashardost: Economy to serve national interests
[Bashardost] I did not want to talk about my working background, but as others talked, I am also talking about that. Today there is only one woman in the cabinet of the person who had four women ministers in his cabinet four years ago. Those who have merely appointed [some women] as directors in the government should know that for the first time a woman was appointed deputy minister in the Ministry of Planning. She had higher education and was literate. She was not from my tribe and region nor did she was talking the language I am talking. Women were running four of 10 important departments in the Ministry of Planning, especially the department dealing with NGOs. It was the women who made the NGOs, the crook NGOs, to cause huge hue and cry. In that time, members of the cabinet of Afghanistan, who are now candidates, resisted Bashardost's decision, saying Bashardsot was crazy. They said the NGOs were rendering services to the people and were making huge efforts! for the prosperity of the people. But they are now repeating what I used to say five years ago.
The women of the country can make a distinction between those who really give them chance and the ones that do not give them the chance. I myself believe that scientific standard should be formulated. Those, who are talking about free market economy, have so far not made a distinction between free market economy and harmful [Dari: Azar] market economy. There is harmful market economy in Afghanistan and this does not have any link to the free market economy at all. The same I talked about economic mafia and terrorism, today the mafias are gobbling up the juice of the people of Afghanistan in the name of free market economy. The alphabet of free market economy is law. No one would be able to prevent a person with huge illegal power and influence from bidding a project at the moment. After the department for privatization was established, I went to Jangalak [metal] firm [in Kabul] and the head of the department also went to the Jangalak firm at that time. After t! he head of the privatization department saw the firm site, he said the firm could be used to build a good residential home. This was the thought of the head of our privatization department. Economy is science and not ideology. When America's national interests require, it does not care whether it has free market economy or not, and the US has nationalized hundreds of banks and insurance companies. Europe and America are in argument at the World Trade Centre accusing each other of not observing the free market economy on the [use of] Boeing and Airbus and on agriculture. Therefore, I believe the economic policy should be the one that serves the national interests. Any economic decision should first be studied based on national interests and than such a decision should be taken. We should avoid chanting slogan and we must also not too much focus on the free market economy that does not serve us.
[Bashardost, talking to the moderator, in Dari] Twelve minutes [as received] remained?
[Ayazi, in Dari] Just 12 and 10 seconds remained.
[Bashardost] Excuse me, it would have been good if you had given me 10 more minutes. You have just given me six seconds.
[Bashardost] Therefore, I would like to say that it is the first duty of the president of Afghanistan to fully fight mafia.
[Ayazi, in Dari] Thank you. Your time has ended.
[Ayazi, in Dari] Esteemed Karzai. If you are elected again by the people, how would you help people feed themselves and how would you fight destituteness and bring prosperity to the country? What will you do to improve the economy of Afghans and help them have something to eat? Would you also comment on the current free market economy in Afghanistan? You have just three minutes.
Karzai promises free market economy
[President Karzai, in Pashto] I would like to first give you some examples. When the Interim administration was established, there was around 180m dollars in Afghanistan's treasury, but the treasury has now reached to around 3,700m dollars. Afghanistan did not had any public assets and banks. Today Afghanistan has public assets, and more than 16 private and government banks are operating in Afghanistan. Branches of banks are operating across Afghanistan and people are working in that. The per capita income of the people of Afghanistan was around 180 dollars but it has now increased to 459 dollars. I promised in the previous elections to help increase the per capita income up to 500 dollars but we are 40 dollars short of that goal and, God willing, we will achieve it in the next [indistinct word]. Wealth and investments have increased in Afghanistan. An American IRI institute released an opinion poll survey yesterday or the day before yesterday based on which 6! 3 per cent of the people told the survey that there living condition had improved and 63 per cent of the Afghans said they were much hopeful about their future. In every corner of the country, markets and living condition have improved and income have increased and I do not want to talk on that, but what the philosophy of our economy should be and is. I believe in free market economy and this system is in the interest of the country.
Initiatives, capitals and people's benefits and moment increase within the free market economy. But free market economy should be according to the realities and conditions of Afghanistan. There should be a difference between free market economy and boundless market economy. We have made some mistakes in this regard in the past seven years and we have also taken some actions to prevent such mistakes. For further development and rebuilding of Afghanistan in the coming five years, we will focus on the projects that would generate more employments, make the country self-reliant in agriculture, generate electricity inside the country, increase trade and transit activities with the neighbouring, turn Afghanistan into a transit hub in the region and enable this country export its good to others and not remain a depreciated country which is unfortunately the case right now. We should take advantage of the opportunity and make ourselves reach the point to at least, as ! Dr Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai said, no Afghans would go abroad to earn a living.
[Ayazi, in Pashto] Thank you very much esteemed Hamed Karzai. Mr Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai, you have many times said in your election campaign that you would help generate 1m jobs for the people. I think this question is also very interesting for you. Would you please tell us in that simple manner that how would you take the nation out of the current misery?
Ahmadzai: promises rule of law in economy
[Ahmadzai, in Pashto] First of all, we should not agree with the idea that the entire economy of Afghanistan is mafia economy. The mafia is not working [with the majority of Afghanistan's farmers. Afghanistan's labourers, who are earning a sum of 50 Afghanis daily and are selling watermelon, are not part of mafia. The majority of our people are religious and pious people. Secondly, a momentum has come to one part of the economy. I know two firms which were opened by experts. Eight years ago, these experts had 500 dollars but some of them have now earned 140 to 200m dollars in a legitimate manner. We must make different innovations. Thirdly, mafia exists in the country. When two hectares of land are given to a person based on an order without any bidding process, it is not the sign of law. The tariffs are reduced for one trader but they are increased again when the commodities of other traders arrive. This is the sign of law! The first principle of the free mark! et economy is the rule of law. The free market economy cannot be implemented until there is rule of law. There are different types of free market economy. The free market economy differs in the US and Japan. The government of Afghanistan has, unfortunately, not decided to set the limits. The first thing I will do is to make clear the limits. The other peculiarity of our country is that we are a landlocked country and most of the economic books are written for the countries where movements of goods are not hampered. Unless we ensure the protection of our two-year annual revenues with the participation of the government and private sectors, the market prices will remain unstable. Given this issue, we should look at the role of the government from another perspective at the moment, and we must legalize our economy. The import of fuel oil is an example. The worst fuel oil and mobil oil of the world are imported to Afghanistan and thousand of our nationals are paying the price f! or that. What kind of country is this that a few limited persons have monopolized import of fuel oil and they are not questioned for importing substandard fuel oil? Is this a sample of implementation of law or is it an attempt to give such type of privilege to a group of people? It requires firmness, virtue and law to put an end to the problem, and the president should be a symbol of rule of law.
[Ayazi, in Dari] Thank you very much. Dr Ashraf Ghani, my next question is on national unity. Afghanistan is made up of tens of small and big groups and tribes and different nationalities. These groups and nationalities have lived together for 100 of years with a proud history and have been united. The first question is whether there is national unity in the country? My question has two parts, please answer both parts. Are the Pashtuns part of the problems, and in case they are not part of the problem, why is there problem in the country's south and east where majority of Pashtuns are living in. Mr Ghani, would you please first answer the question. You have just there minutes.
Ahmadzai: national unity key to solve ethnic problems
[Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai, in Dari] National unity exists among the people. I was in both Zabol [south] and Bamian [north] in one day and I did not see any differences in the feelings and expectations of the people. All our people seek justice, equal rights and all of them sense their responsibilities towards each other, because our people have married among different tribes and are neighbours and live together. The issue of unity was raised when tribal basis turned into a business. Ethnic politicians have replaced national ones. [One sentence cannot be heard due to poor reception]. If we want to really strengthen our national unity we should mainly focus and invest on the young generation. Today none of our universities are operating at the regional level. No major investment has been made on our higher educational institutions. Today the focus is on the number of children attending school, but tens of our children graduating from school are jobless today and th! is cause tension. The third step depends on the government. I wish there was a system allowing people find work in the government based on merit and as Mr Karzai said people are joining the government in India based on a very transparent system. Today it is almost impossible for a young skilled person to find work in the government in Afghanistan and until this system is established, it is difficult to strengthen national unity and national identity. The other issue playing a role in the national unity is the presence of political parties. Today we are in a position that political parties are unfortunately tribal-based. On the issue of Pashtun and non-Pashtun, I should say there was oppression in the country's south and east because of the appointment of incompetent governors in those regions. The majority of the judges are not present at their work in the insecure southern provinces and the governors are mostly staying in Kabul rather than in their offices. The district ch! iefs have been appointed not based on a logical framework. Therefore, the problem is not in identity but in justice.
[Ayazi in Dari] Mr Bashardost, please answer the same question. I will not give my own opinion. Do you think there is national unity in the country at present time? If there is, do you think Pashtuns are the main cause of instability, because obviously instability is mainly in the Pashtun populated regions? You have three minutes.
Bashardost: supports national unity
[Bashardost in Dari] I would like to explain two points. Economy has never been controlled by workers and farmers, workers and farmers have never been decision-makers in the economic sector, neither in Afghanistan nor in any other part of the world. Economic Mafia is a term to denote those who take economic decisions, even on matters as to what our farmers should grow and how they should grow. Americans set the framework of Japan's economy after World War II. Free market economy has a set framework which is constant and same in every part of the world. That set framework is the concepts of demand and supply, sound market competition and unhampered movement of goods and people. Second issue; when it is said that per capita income of an Afghan was 180 dollars, we should also not forget that there were Afghans who did not have a single penny and who sold their sons for 12,000 afghani [around 250 dollars]. Second; when there was 180 dollars per capita income, only! 80 tons of narcotics was produced in Afghanistan. Today, if per capita income is 495 dollars that is because production of narcotics has increased to 8,000 tons. There is a difference of the earth and the sky between the assistance pledged in Tokyo and the assistance pledged in London. Afghanistan's annual revenues have not gone up because of increased national productions. On contrary, Afghanistan's economic growth is declining. It has been in a decline year by year after 2002. I have statistics here. I think we should be accurate.
National Unity; national unity can have two meanings; one that there is a dining table with one [ethnic] Hazara, one Tajik, one Pashtun, One Uzbek etc. And they have meal and fun. This may mean national unity. No brother, this is not national unity. Even so, I wish, the best of a Hazara, the best of Tajik or Uzbek or Pashtun were invited. They invite those people to this table [power], who have oppressed their own people and their own tribes. I went to different provinces of Afghanistan, to different tribes. I did not pay for their travel expenses, nor did I give them food. Yet they came to my gatherings and listened to me. For them, it is not important as to who is a minister. What is important for them is whether a minister can build hospitals for them, make roads for them, bring electricity for them and give them protection against corrupt people. A minister's tribal affiliation is not important to them. Pashtuns are not the cause of problem in Afghanistan.! They are true victims. They tell me, Mr Bashardost! I do not want to quote what they ask me, because I fear we may end up throwing bottles at each other.
[Ayazi in Dari] Thank you Mr Bashardost, your time is up. Mr Hamed Karzai, the same question is referred to you. Do you think national unity exists or it does not as fighting and violence is mainly limited to Pashtun areas in the south and east of Afghanistan. You also have three minutes.
Karzai: conspiracy against Pashtun
[Hamed Karzai in Pashto] There is complete national unity, there is national unity by all means, and there are numerous evidences of this from the history of Afghanistan and even today. About eight years ago when Taleban governed Afghanistan, I went to Badakhshan [Northern Province] to meet Prof Burhanoddin Rabbani and martyr Ahmad Shah Masud [the legendary mojahidin commander]. I went to Faizabad [capital of Badakhshan] Medical College which was transferred from Kabul after the capital had fallen into the hands of the Taleban. A girl student of the medical college stood and said she was very disappointed by the fact that she had the opportunity to study, but girls in Kandahar [southern province] did not. There are thousands of similar examples. There is national unity in our country. I fully agree with respectable Bashardost that Pashtuns are not the cause, but the victims of problem. Their victimization has been continuing for at least 115 or 116 years. When! late Pacha Khan, Khan Abdolghaffar Khan went to Pakistan from Kabul in 1918 or 1919, he established a school. The British imprisoned him for setting up school for Pashtuns. The conspiracy to deprive Pashtuns of educations has been continuing ever since then until now. When Taleban came to the scene, schools were open in all other parts of Afghanistan, but were closed in Pashtun areas. When our administration came to power, we opened schools all over Afghanistan, and schools in the south in Pashtun areas were reopened. Now, over the past two years, 80 thousand girls have been prevented from going to schools in Swat [District of NWFP of Pakistan]. Their elders were killed, their clerics were martyred. This is a huge conspiracy against these people. This problem can only be solved through strong national unity among Afghans, particularly through concerted, concrete measures by Pashtuns. They should come up with an agreement among themselves, and among their neighbours and wit! h the world about the solution to this problem. To my understanding th e only solution is reconciliation. Taleban must be convinced that they have been provoked and mobilized against their own people. They should be asked to stop such actions, stop destroying these people. America and the world should also be told that Pashtuns support them. Pashtuns are not affiliated with Al-Qa'idah or terrorism. Rather, they are the real victims of terrorism. This war is not in our villages, not in our homes and not in our territories. The war is waged from areas where there are [terrorist] bases, where there are hideouts. Go find their bases, and stop bombing my soil.
[Ayazi in Dari] Respectable candidates, thank you very much. Before going to the next part of the debate, I must mention that Radio Liberty and Afghanistan National TV are broadcasting this debate together, simultaneously. Radio Liberty broadcasts begin at 0700 hours local time and end at 1900 hours. But Ashna TV has agreed to give us one hours broadcast time. We may continue for another 20 minutes.
[Hamed Karzai in Pashto] Let's have a break for prayer.
[Ayazi in Pashto] Would you like to go now? We may have 15 minutes until prayer.
[Hamed Karzai in Pashto] No, please, we have little time left for prayer. We should offer prayer first.
[Ayazi in Pashto] OK, but please do come back for the remaining part of the debate, because there are many questions by the nation unanswered.
[Ayazi, in Pashto] Dear compatriots and esteemed audience of the Liberty Radio and viewers of the National Television of Afghanistan!
The debate between presidential candidates will go on for a few minutes more. There was a break to observe the evening prayers. Thank you for your tolerance and it should be pointed out that the Ashna TV has given its one hour time to the Liberty Radio and the Liberty Radio is airing the debate until eight O' clock at night [1530 gmt].
[Ayazi, in Dari] Esteemed candidates, before I jump to foreign policy of your future government, I have some specific questions for you. These questions belong to you and every one of you please answer these questions. The first question refers to you Mr Bashardost. There is no doubt that you are a poor person and there are speculations about you either. You are living in tent. I heard that you do not drink Coca Cola. You do not accept any gift. Don't you think that as a presidential candidate, you are trying to exaggerate to some extend that you are a national personality or I can say that you are introducing yourself as a poor person - is that right for a presidential candidate?
Bashardost wants to promotes equality among tribes
[Bashardost] Could you show me someone who does not eat steak in order to show that he is an innocent poor person? When one sees melon, his appetite will be provoked but one should control his desires as his compatriots do not have enough money to purchase a loaf of bread. I have seen the people are living in caves in Bamian Province. Thirty per cent of our compatriots in Panjshir Province are feeding with barley bread. When we claim that we are the leader of the country, while eating Palaw and Chalaw [two traditional Afghan rice dishes], how can we rescue famished people. What I am doing is the start of riving specifications of superior Caliph [four friends of Prophet Mohammad PBUH]. Whether I set on a golden or plastic chair, my logic will not increase. I will be the same Bashardost. Therefore, if we take a look from the Islamic period, there is no difference between houses of the Caliphs and an ordinary individual. Their clothes, foods and every thing was t! he same.
When someone from the Roman empire visited Medina Monawara [in Saudi Arabia], he observed that all the houses were same. He saw that the people's Caliph was sleeping on the ground.
What does know a well-off individual about a poor person? What does know a person with full stomach about a person with empathy stomach? Those who live in palaces whether they build their palaces from their own money but since their neighbour - Prophet Mohammad said that when someone sleeps with full stomach while his neighbour is hungry, he is not a Muslim.
This country can be rescued by a president, who is from within itself, he should be elected from among the people and he should not be different from other Afghans.
The president should face death because death is dominating every part of Afghanistan. A president, who travels on armour vehicles and is escorted by 10 to 20 bodyguards cannot face death. He is trying to rescue himself from death instead of rescuing the nation from death.
What I am doing, perhaps some people say is exaggeration - since, I came from France, I have decided not to drink Coca Cola and fruit juices because that time Afghanistan was invaded, there were bombardment and our people did not have any thing to feed themselves. When they gave me 60,000 dollars to purchase vehicle, I told them that you are buying vehicle for me at the cost of Afghanistan's total budget. I told them that was there any vehicle in the Ministry of Planning, they said that yes there was an obsolete vehicle in the Ministry of Planning, I said that is fine. Whether I travel on a vehicle costing 100,000 dollars or on a vehicle costing 2,000 dollars, I will be the same Bashardost.
But when one lives in palaces, he will be divided from poor people. He will forget the poor people. When one lives in palaces, he will not have access to poor people. Therefore, I am coming to understanding every passing day that why the Caliphs had accepted difficult life. [Bashardost's speech was interrupted by Ayazi]
[Ayazi, in Dari] Mr Bashardost your time is over. Thank you very much.
{Ayazi, in Pashto] Mr Ashraf Ghani, this question is directly referring to you. You have spent most of your lifetime in the USA. When the Afghan nation stood against the then Soviet Union, you were in the West. You are a famous economist. Taking into account the two facts, what do you think - my question has another section and I will refer to that as well and please listen to both of them and answer them - will the Afghan nation trust in you and vote for you while you was not in Afghanistan for 20 or 25 years. Also, there are speculations that you are not in a good condition. There are gossips that you are very furious person, you become angry very fast and there are rumours that what is called in Kandahari expression you have slapped the people sometimes. Is that right that you are not in a good health and you become angry fast - is that fine for a president? You have three minutes.
Ahmadzai: promises to achieve unity and pride of Afghanistan
[Ashraf Ghani in Pashto] Thank you very much. I wish these speculations have been made on the basis of factuality. 12 years ago, I was sick. I was suffering from cancer and I have been threatened by this disease for five years. Now, I am fine, I work 18 hours daily. Nowadays, I work for 20 hours and can anyone in the current cabinet work like this. When I was working as minister, I used to be the first person in office and I used to leave the office in the last.
This is my way and the people can see in practical what does work look like. If I had slapped anyone, he should have gone to the court. But I am sensitive against those individuals who steal government assets. I am sensitive against those people, who steal public assets and engaged in embezzlement in custom departments, there are questions about the right and wrong. There is question about Afghanistan's national benefit. So, my stance is based on national benefit.
You told me that I was not in Afghanistan. Most Afghan officials were abroad. Ahmad Shah Baba was outside Afghanistan. Mirwais Neka travelled to many places. We have a historical castle in Afghanistan and its history goes back to 400 years and 24 years in exile is nothing compared to that.
But what is important is that does someone know how to tackle problem or just he talks about the problem.
Our nation knows better than anyone about the problems, our nation does not need to know about definition of problems. There is financial crisis, unemployment problem in Afghanistan or there is oppression and the people know about these all very well.
My specification is that I have solution for these problems and it can be implemented by the youths, helpless and women.
But it is up to the nation to choose whether the solution is right. And it is up to the nation to decide. I do not stand on presidential election to gain power. Power is not important for me. I stand to change the nation's status fundamentally so that we will achieve unity and cause pride for Afghanistan.
[Ayazi in Pashto] Thank you very much. Mr Karzai, you have been working as president for seven years and you have not dealt with issues decisively, particularly in terms of national issues. Now, you are known as the one who easily make coalition. It is that right?
[Hamed Karzai in Dari] What I am confessing to?
[Ayazi] You are making coalition.
[Hamed Karzai] Coalition!
[Ayazi in Pashto] If it is right
[Ayazi in Dari] if it is right, then why should the people vote for you?
Karzai: "compromises" in national interests
[Hamed Karzai in Dari] Yes! I took charge of leading the country seven years ago at a time when our country was completely in ruin. All its government institutions were destroyed. Groups have fought in Afghanistan for years.
Foreign countries have seriously interfered in Afghanistan and the country has been invaded. Our roads, infrastructures and establishments have completely been destroyed. There has not been government but there has been society and nation that have safeguarded the country. For me Afghanistan was like a beautiful cup but very frail and I had to save it from storm, rainfall, mountain, desert and threat and take it to a safe place. We have travelled for seven years. I have been accused of making compromise and coalition over the past seven years and it has been said that Karzai is making a lot of deals. I say yes, I have made compromise for the sake of Afghanistan's national interest, Afghanistan's security and peace, strengthening unity in Afghanistan, making progress in Afghanistan, protecting Afghanistan and pushing it towards security and if we pay attention we have owned a better country with better security and pride.
If there is a need for compromise to have a developed Afghanistan, end violence in Afghanistan and preventing groups from clashing, I will do again compromise and I will do that thousand times, I will do that million times, I will not give up until we have a complete peaceful country to witness like today's debate among candidates and after five years candidate will be able to stand like today in a debate. After ten or 20 years, candidates should also stand in such debates. After 50 years, candidates should hold debates and president of that time should not dare to say that he has made such initiation. I have brought this freedom and I am proud of it.
[Ayazi] You have still 30 seconds Mr Karzai and if you want you can continue.
[Hamed Karzai] Um, No
[Ayazi in Pashto] OK, if you agree then it is ok. I just want to jump to the last part of the debate. I have two questions. You are also tired. The questions are about Afghanistan's foreign policy.
[Ayazi, in Dari] Mr Bashardost the first question refers to you.
[Ayazi, in Pashto] Has the war on terror ended in Afghanistan? It is the first part. The second part is since the international forces came to Afghanistan to fight terrorism, if you are elected as president of Afghanistan, do you have any specific strategy for their withdrawal or stay in Afghanistan? The fight against terrorism has ended or not and do you have any strategy for the foreign forces exit or stay in Afghanistan?
Bashardost criticizes US for Afghan "catastrophe"
[Bashardost in Dari] I have hint at two points. I have never seen any official of the Ministry of Planning to note my arrival and exit time in the ministry that whether I work a lot or not to compare it later. I have done a lot of works because I had no home and my work was my home. My office was my home and my home was my office.
Corruption and abusing of government resources have not been done only by warlords. Unfortunately, those wearing ties have caused damages to Afghanistan over the past seven years than any others as they know the way for taking bribe, steal money and hide it.
Today, Bearing Point [a USAID sub-branch], Louis Berger, [an international company] and Comunix, [an international company] are a very big catastrophe for Afghanistan. The way, Mr Karzai hinted at IRI [International Republican Institute, a think-thank] is a big misery. The Republican Party in the USA has lost the power but it does not want to lose the power in Afghanistan and it is interfering here. It is interfering in Afghanistan's election by launching a poll which does not have any scientific basis, a poll in a country where there is fighting in Maydan-Wardag Province and there is not any opportunity for a poll - by giving 45 per cent to someone - I ask IRI to stop it, otherwise, all the USA will face its consequences. If the international community had fought terrorism, Afghanistan should have pushed towards peace since 2001 and terrorism should have become weak in Afghanistan. The National Defence Ministry has not given us helicopters to travel to Helman! d, Kandahar, Nimroz and Badakhshan provinces because it told me that Sir Bashardost, they transfer wounded on helicopters. I have travelled to those provinces where one could clearly hear the sound of fighting. Without justice, it is not possible to maintain security.
Those who want to bring peace to Afghanistan by oppressors, they are digging grave for themselves and nation. Now, we see that the situation is worsening with every passing day.
We should ask the international community clearly that what it wants from Afghanistan. If it came to Afghanistan to fight the Taleban and Usamah Bin-Ladin, if I become president, I am sure, this reason will be ended because I am the only Afghan who I travel without bodyguards. I have travelled to those parts where the NATO and US [forces] cannot go with 20 tanks. I have gone there with one word from the holy Koran. And today, I am the only politician Afghans trust.
[Ayazi] I am sorry Mr Bashardost your time is over.
[Ayazi in Pashto] Esteemed Ashraf Ghani, has the war on terror ended in Afghanistan? Do you have any strategy for the international forces to withdraw from Afghanistan if war on terror ends?
[Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai in Pashto] The first thing is that we should have a transparent objective. Our objective should entail strengthening national sovereignty in Afghanistan. Based on this framework, we should come up with a clear stance every year to assess how much we make progress in terms of achieving this objective.
If there is no such a scheme, all the remarks are empathy words because the people want practical steps. The international forces should not arrest the people and preconditions should be specified that how to prevent from arresting the people by the international forces.
Secondly, what do the international forces want in Afghanistan, they want stability and for stability an Afghan leadership with a transparent Afghan scheme for stability is needed. The foreigners cannot bring stability directly to Afghanistan and we should clarify this.
We should draw up the strategy and take the initiative in hand. We should have cooperation with them [foreign forces] on a transparent basis and the size of our capability should be enhanced clearly with every passing year and their [foreign forces] capability should be decreased.
Who has bee posing threat? Al-Qa'idah is posing threat. In terms of our internal issue, every Afghan, who accepts Afghanistan, should be included within Afghanistan. We should have a framework for peace and based on that we should satisfy all the Afghans that it is our common homeland and except to build it with sincerity and faith, we cannot take any step towards progress.
Fortunately, enough assessments have been made on those doctrines, who have aimed at bombarding and fighting over the past seven years in Afghanistan. It has been proved either in Iraq and Afghanistan that the issue cannot be addressed through bombardments and fighting.
The Americans have come to the conclusion that the issue can be tackled by force by 20 per cent while the issue can be addressed by 80 per cent through political option, deliberation and strong economy can also tackle the problem.
As of now, international involvement has not been on the basis of such a balance, it has been by 80 per cent through force and by 20 per cent through other options.
In terms of contributions, the international community has failed in Afghanistan. Since we do not bring fundamental changes, hammer out a framework for the international contributions and lack a clear and transparent scheme, we will not be able to bring peace.
[Ayazi in Pashto] Thank you very much, your time is over. Esteemed Hamed Karzai you please answer this question and I will have another question and then the debate will end.
Karzai: Foreign forces' operation to reduce
[Hamed Karzai in Pashto] Well, in my opinion, terrorism is in the region. But it affects Afghanistan. It will be the best strategy when Afghanistan and the international community immediately implement the agreements reached over the past five years in Bonn, Paris and in various NATO summits in terms of beefing up the Afghan national army and police, civil administration, economic development, investment and expenses in reconstruction process in Afghanistan.
The Afghans' specific authority in specific fields should be strengthened by our friends, meaning now our ministries have the ability to spend funds individually and implement projects. Now, our forces have the capability to launch operation and almost 60 per cent of operations are carried out by our own forces. Meanwhile, the Afghan government's capacity should be developed as much as it becomes able to implement projects and this way the ground will be prepared gradually for the withdrawal of foreigners from Afghanistan.
I am hopeful this step will be implemented between three and ten years. It means the foreign forces activities should be limited in Afghanistan. It means the foreign forces operations should be reduced in Afghanistan. It means the foreign involvement in projects should be decreased in Afghanistan and instead the Afghans should carry out these jobs. But in those areas where the Afghans need assistance, the foreigners will help them. Afghanistan needs help to stand on its own feet. We need the foreigners in Afghanistan. We respect their presence and we are indebted of their presence in Afghanistan. Their presence is in our benefit, particularly in those fields where Afghanistan has relation with the region and neighbours and Afghanistan has maintained good balance in its foreign relation and this balance should be approved by our international friends.
Meanwhile, Afghanistan should take steps between three and seven years to stand on its own feet and it will have the world support and this it will be to this land's benefit. We want to continue our relation with the world but our relation should be permanent and strategic and we will work to stand on our own feet and achieve our objectives.
[Ayazi in Pashto] Thank you very much esteemed Hamed Karzai.
[Ayazi in Dari] We are going through to the final question of this night's Afghan presidential candidates' debate. It was a historical night. It is also about your foreign policy.
It has two parts. Is there any way to get rid of Afghanistan to turn to battleground between regional countries, between Pakistan and India and USA and Iran? Secondly, do you have anything to say about increasing Russian role in Afghanistan? Mr Ghani please go ahead.
Please answer these questions and you have two minutes.
Ahmadzai: wants to promote permanent Afghan interests
[Ashraf Ghani in Dari] We are located in three circles: circle of our neighbours, circle of Islamic countries and the circle of international community.
About first circle, unless Afghanistan possesses a leadership, brings consensus among prominent political figures and specifies Afghanistan's national interest, the neighbouring countries will interfere in Afghanistan. A country neither has permanent friend nor foe but a country has permanent interest. And it requires a political consensus to specify the red lines of national interest and any discussion can be held based on the national interest.
Unfortunately, we have failed to draw these lines. Therefore, we should take the initial step from presidential election.
Regarding our neighbours, our every neighbour should trust in us that our soil will not be used against them at all and activities of international intelligence services come under full control as they cannot act contrary to our interest. Russia had a role in this land in the past and from economic point of view, we can have some common interest with Russia but we should have broad framework for cooperation with the Muslim World and region. And based on this framework, we should organize our national interest.
The Arab world can either assist Afghanistan in terms of investment and peace process.
[Ayazi in Dari] Thank you very Ashraf Ghani Ahamdzai. Mr Bashardost what do you say in this regard, can you prevent from fighting between Pakistan and India and Iran and USA in Afghanistan? What is your opinion about the Russian influence on Afghanistan? You have two minutes.
Bashadost: foreign policy not based on any race, language, culture
[Bashardost in Pashto] I would like to say that I do not agree with those who want to carry out war by the Afghans as they want to kill the Afghans by the Afghan army. The Americans do not kill our Afghans but our army is able to kill our Afghans - no, never Afghan should kill another Afghan.
[Bashardost continued in Dari] The Afghan policy should be based on its national interest. No Islamic country sacrifices its national interest for religious issues. It is an actual historical mistake if we accept that the regional country is helping us because we have share common religion or language with them. They have caused today's miseries in Afghanistan. They are occupying our land by centimetre. National interest should be shaped without any racial, linguistic and cultural aspects and it should be the basis of Afghan foreign policy.
Afghanistan should shape its national interest based on just national benefit. Our past history demonstrates that those who have common religion and language with us have committed hundreds of assassinations in this land and they have pushed Afghanistan towards this misery. Secondly, no neighbouring country can trust in an Afghan president, who cannot prove in practical that he is acting independently.
Thirdly, the current government has even been ready to pay Russia's debt, a debt for Russian tanks that have killed hundreds of Afghans. When I was minister of planning, I informed the cabinet that paying one rupee to Russia is itself a crime. Russia should compensate all damages inflicted on Afghanistan and we will be able to pay salaries of teachers for months.
[Ayazi in Dari] Thank you Mr Bashardost. Esteemed Hamed Karzai please go ahead with the question and if you want I can repeat the question.
[Hamed Karzai] I got it.
[Ayazi] You can express your opinion and you have two minutes.
Karzai: vows multiculturalism in foreign policy
[Hamed Karzai in Dari] The Afghan foreign policy, the way it has been observed over the past seven years, is multiculturalism. It has been based on various dimensions. Our relation goes on this trend with our close neighbours and distant neighbours like India, Russia and Turkey and with Islamic World and West as well as with regional and international organizations. We have gained visible achievements over the past seven years in this regard. This policy aims at having a peaceful and independent Afghanistan with a good economy and better living condition.
Therefore, we have tried to strengthen our relation with neighbouring countries and Muslim World over the past seven years. But meanwhile we have very close relation with the West, particularly with USA. We also have strong relation with the Muslim World, especially with Saudi Arabia. We have relation with international organizations and we try that Afghanistan should turn to a regional hub of transit and commerce and regional economic relations should be maintained through Afghanistan. Also, we have tried that no neighbouring country should feel any threat from Afghanistan and meanwhile Afghanistan should not feel any concern and threat from its neighbours. We have tried to shape this relation on the basis of bilateral relation and interests with neighbouring countries. We have some problems in some fields but we have resolved other problems.
[Ayazi in Dari] Dear compatriots, audience of the Radio Liberty and viewers of the National Television of Afghanistan, this historical debate between presidential candidates of Afghanistan at this historical hall of the National Radio Television of Afghanistan ends here.
Thank you very much esteemed candidates, Hamed Karzai, Dr Ashraf Ghani and Dr Ramazan Bashardost.
The Radio Liberty and National TV are thankful to you, the Afghan nation is thankful to you for raising important issues for them and answering those questions.
[Guests applauding]
Eng.Temor Nawabi
Media Analyst/Advisor
PAO (Public Affairs Office)
ISAF/NATO HQ
Kabul-Afghanistan